I haven’t heard ANY insightful comments in the mainstream media as to why Trump supporters are voting for him based on where he stands on key issues. This is obviously because the MSM disagrees with Trump on key issues and doesn’t want to give them any airtime on the chance that would make them seem like valid arguments. Without anything insightful to add to the discussion they simply avoid it (which is wise for them). The only insightful comment I have heard in the MSM is that people are angry and want change. That is now obvious. However, anger fades and now there is a new president so lets talk about what now. This post is for Hillary Clinton supporters who are now interested in respectfully trying to understand their previous opponents. If you just want to argue/blast someone, please move to the CNN comments section. Hopefully this post will actually be read by someone and they will begin to understand more what many of the people who voted for Donald Trump are expecting from him and why.
Pro Abortion Logic Responses from a Pro Lifer
The key to all of my responses below is that there is a line that needs to be drawn on when “tissue” matures enough to have its own rights and value aside from scientific experiments. The reason why passionate pro abortion advocates don’t discuss this issue publicly, that I have seen, is because there is no place to draw the line that still allows abortion. Once tissue is alive and has a complete set of human DNA that will give it a chance to grow into a human being, then the tissue is a human. Any other distinction would also leave out a percentage of the population that is obviously human already! DNA is what makes us who we are. We are not the sum of our parts
1. Abortion is about women’s right to choose whether their baby lives or dies
- This issue has nothing to do with upholding freedom (aka prochoice label) and everything to do with each side choosing what they think is right and wrong. This is proved true because if women have the freedom to have an abortion by law, than the same people lobbying for that law also lobby that doctors be forced to provide abortions (giving up their freedom). And if doctors have the freedom to not provide abortions based on their beliefs than women are not always guaranteed freedom to have abortions. True freedom always has limitations based on what is declared acceptable by the people in law.
- Women have the right not to have sex and the right to use contraception (if they pay for it). This is not about rights, it is about avoiding the consequences of our actions to satisfy our desire for a decreasing moral standard.
- Women do not need the right to kill other humans that make their life inconvenient. If I made your life inconvenient because you moved to become my neighbor are you allowed to kill me? If your children make your life miserable are you allowed to kill them? What if it turns out you are a terrible parent and your kids grow up unloved and uncared for? Should we just kill them then to put them out of there misery? That is what most pro abortion advocates use to defend abortion (the child would grow up in a hard and unfair environment).
2. Abortion is about supporting women when they are vulnerable
- If abortion made women’s lives better why are the halls of abortion support groups filled with grieving mothers? Why is depression and suicide higher for mothers that have had an abortion?
- If we wanted to support mothers we wouldn’t be coaching young women about how to have premarital sex with less consequences but teaching them how to take responsibility for their actions and plan ahead. There is a reason why the pill is called plan B. Plan A involves healthy relationships and a future.
- Children always make your life harder via time, money and emotionally. But humans need life to get harder in order to grow character most of the time. Character is what makes your life better. Graciously surrounding young single mothers with supportive relationships will build their confidence as a mom and as a woman not setting them up for depression by giving free baby murders as an option for their boyfriends to pressure them into.
- I understand that many if not most young girls having abortions don’t have a loving supportive relational network to draw on. This is all the more reason why they need practical help, not just a means of escape.
3. Abortion isn’t murder because the fetus can’t survive on its own before x weeks and so isn’t human
- Right, so if I become dependent when I get older and my kids have to look after me I am no longer a human and have reverted back to tissue status? Does not being able to walk up and down stairs count? Does not being able to take care of my own house count? Does not being able to get dressed or wipe my bum count? Does not being able to breath on my own count? How about being on full life support? Am I not human then? What if I can’t even wink to communicate but my brain is still working and I am conscious? ps Now if there are no electrons flowing then I am obviously dead even if you can keep my heart pumping and chest breathing. Until that time, screw off and don’t try to kill me! However, if I do get in a vegetative state please do let me die outside in nature, not in a halogen lit cave by myself.
4. Abortion isn’t murder because the fetus doesn’t look like a human and isn’t the same size as a human or has the umbilical cord still attached and so isn’t human
- Right, so if I get badly disfigured and dismembered and make people cringe when they look at me, then I am no longer a human but tissue?
- So if I am a midget, or born incredibly small then I am not a human? What is the percentile of size that I need to be to be considered human? How about on the too big side then?
- So if a baby is fully born but still attached to the umbilical cord (like normally happens) you can just kill them because they are physically separate from their mother yet? What about conjoined twins? Are they not human because there isn’t a single body with single fully functioning organs?
5. What if they are raped? How is that fair to say they have to keep the baby?
- Yes, that isn’t fair. But it was getting raped that wasn’t fair. Giving your baby the same rights you have is perfectly fair and just.
In conclusion, this is just one example. I don’t believe that this is true because Trump tweeted it !!!?!!!! And that really pisses me off when people say that Trumps followers are just dying white uneducated people. I am a 29 year old almost P.Eng man with a good job. I wouldn’t believe anything I hear on twitter as is unless Jesus came back and got a twitter account. (That hasn’t happened yet). They insulted Ben Carson for being to gentle, Trump for being to aggressive and me for being too gullible. Please give everyone some respect. People make choices based on the info they have. Just because someone lives a simple life doesn’t make them stupid. People that live busy lives aren’t necessarily smart either. Also, many people that go to college have zero percent more life skills or wisdom than those that don’t. Also, people that can make over 75k a year without going to college probably know how to start their own small business which is exactly why they would favor someone who is willing to prioritize small businesses. Those that know how to start their own business have a much better chance/skill set of running a country successfully/choosing the right candidate then those that have never had to learn how to manage anyone other than just themselves (single college graduates).
Creating For The Kingdom 
For a guy claiming to want a reasonable discussion, you sure are blasting some judgments about…
First off, there are no “pro abortion” people, there are “pro choice” people. What that means is that a woman has the right to exercise her God-given free will, to choose what happens with her body.
The issue of when life becomes life has been debated thoroughly, and is the main divide in the debate regarding abortion, but I guess fanatical Christian views tend to be one sided only. You define life as: tissue containing human DNA, that could potentially grow into a human, so shouldn’t that include the egg and sperm even before fertilization? They both consist of tissue, comprising human DNA, that could potentially grow into a human… As such, a woman is committing “murder” on a monthly frequency, and men are even worst, with most committing mass murder daily.
From your above points, only the first has any basis, the rest are straw-man arguments:
1. Does a woman have a right to choose? I say yes. God gave us free will, the power of choice. No matter how you personally feel, or your personal beliefs, you don’t have the right to use the law to force others to do what you want, simply because you feel it’s morally correct… (Many people of faith thought slavery was a-ok because “blacks” were “savages”, do you want bring that back too? God didn’t give us free will so that we would all have to follow a strict set of the rules, that idea is nonsensical… It would be like baking my children a batch of cookies. The best cookies ever, and calling them over to see them. I let them smell the cookies, but tell them they can’t touch them, or eat even a single crumb, because if they do I will lock them in the basement for the rest of their lives, beating them a strap and feeding them gruel as punishment for making the wrong choice…
Abortion involves a life not yet realized. In early development the fetus has no brain, no heart, etc… it therefore cannot think, nor be completely sentient. There is no definitive answer for when a soul enters the equation, but a fetus does not equate it to a person with a disability.
2. You talk of supporting new mothers instead of allowing them to decide, but would that group feed and clothes a pregnant woman that has no job, is homeless, a drug-addict, etc? Will you feed and clothes her child as it’s born and grows, give it free healthcare and an education… if she is simply unable? If you are willing to steal her power to choose, then you should be willing to take on the responsibilities for her. You judge her as only trying to “escape”, but only God may judge. Making that choice is not an easy one, unless you are contemplating it personally, you have no idea what factors a woman may need to consider, how she feels about it, or why she perhaps decides that maybe it’s better for that unborn child to not be born…
3. Allowing a pregnant woman to choose, is the not the same as killing a person for being disabled. Apples vs Oranges. When you have family members that are disabled, you tend to have conversations where that person expresses their wishes, and family can therefore act appropriately… For some, that means a DNR, for others that means holding on to the bitter end… but ask those that deal with these choices every day. Visit a palliative care facility and talk with drs, nurses, and patients. Listen to their opinions without judging, and perhaps you will be able to understand why for some people, there comes a point where life is no longer worth living… that doesn’t mean you still can’t hold on until that last electron if you so wish, because that’s God’s gift: CHOICE.
4. I’ve honestly never heard that as an argument before, but clearly it’s already been covered…
5. So because she was raped and got pregnant, she now gets to have her free will subverted twice? It is not fair, nor just, as that fetus is a fetus, not yet a person. It is for all intensive purposes, a continuation of the violation made against her. If she so chooses to not continue being violated, who are you to judge?
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Hello Reasonable Person. I am honoured that you would take the time to leave such a thought filled comment on my blog! Also, thank you for reading till the end. You seem interested in a response from me so I will do my best to provide one.
I say pro abortion because that is what the choice is for. The choice isn’t for freedom in general but specifically the legal right for women to choose to kill their babies. You seem to be on the same page on that the key issue is centered on whether the baby is a human yet or not.
You pointed out a valid hole in my definition. I shall redefine a human as a living mass of tissue which God has put his Spirit into in order to bring it to life in His own image. That is what the Bible says so I should probably just stick with that. This would differentiate between sperm/egg and a fetus. However, you have made me think that although obviously the fetus could grow to become a human, I don’t know exactly when God puts His Spirit into the tissue. I am convinced that it is once the sperm and egg dna have joined. But I don’t know that for sure. By my last definition even a sperm doesn’t have the complete human dna to become a human. It still just has half the dna it needs. Otherwise we would just be able to grow humans with just either an egg or a sperm as far as I understand. It seems likely that since the DNA can run the course to create a human body of tissue then that is also when God would put his Spirit into it. If you don’t believe we have a spirit/soul then my definition will be a human consists of some tissue with the complete set of DNA to create a human given the right conditions. Similar to a computer, the difference between my computer and yours of the same model is simply what is on the hard drive/memory. The DNA is what makes us who we are. (Also that is why I think messing with anything’s DNA directly is not good and why God said and each will produce after their own kind).
Without your definition of a human it is probably not worth me responding to any of your other questions as they wouldn’t apply likely if the baby was a human. I understand that you aren’t dumb and can see that if the tissue is a real baby then the “right to choose abortion” is the same as the right to kill her children while they are defenseless. Do you believe a woman has the right to kill her 1 year old daughter if, in your words, the woman is considering many hard factors and isn’t supported well by others?
Since this really is a life or death issue I understand why everyone that disagrees with me has a right to be passionate about that. I would say you even have a responsibility to be passionate in debating this issue since someone telling you that you have murdered an innocent child if you had an abortion would put a severe an unnecessary stress on you at a terrible time in life. If unborn babies are not humans/have no God given spirit then I totally agree with all your other points except about how/why God gives us free will.
Free will is so important to God that he has allowed all the suffering in the whole world throughout all of history as the price to pay for it. Love is meaningless without free will. However, God didn’t give us choices so that we could do evil things like killing other people simply for convenience/to avoid having to take care of them. He also didn’t put natural laws into place as consequences to gloat over our suffering. If you Google, biblehub everything is permissible, you will find that also not everything is beneficial. AND while He will give us grace if we repent from any sin he still places authority in place to punish us and prevent us from hurting others. We get to choose to live under grace or not. That is also our choice. You have a choice to kill your unborn child and it is my choice to put leaders in place that will put you in jail for that. I also hope those leaders will provide funding to make it more accessible for anyone that cares to help mothers with unborn children provide for them properly. Any legitimate church that preaches against abortion will also preach strongly for adoption. I don’t know all the moms out there that need help but I sure hope one day I can adopt a child that wants a chance to be loved.
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Thanks for your reply. I asked those questions in a rhetorical sense, for you to ponder. I was not expecting a reply, only hoped that you take the time to read and consider another view point.
“The choice isn’t for freedom in general but specifically…” But that’s what freedom is, a series of specific choices, that pertain to one’s own life/experiences… Does it affect your life if someone else makes that choice? No, only you can decide what’s right for yourself, and as we both agree, it will be up to God to judge in whatever afterlife there may be.
Supporting a person’s right to the freedom to make their own personal choices, is not the same as supporting whatever conclusion they may decide on. Personally I agree that people need to take responsibility for their actions, and for abortion, I do not think I could personally choose it. However, that doesn’t mean I support removing that choice from someone else, by making it illegal. The constitution clearly states that there must be a separation of the church and state, for this very reason.
Again you are offering false-equivalents. A child is of course a person, and I drew lines previously toward signs of life, such as heartbeat, a brain, etc… Perhaps this may help you understand: http://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/abortioninfo/misconce.shtml
Do you not see the contradiction in what you’re saying? How does a person commit “evil”, if they have no free will? Take Adam and Eve: Satan didn’t force them to eat that apple, he offered it. Eve made the choice to take a bite, and so it goes… God gave her the free will to choose whether or not to take that bite. If he truly didn’t want her to bite it, why give her free will? Why plant the tree in the first place? I could just as easily suggest that he allowed her the choice so that he could then be justified in punishing people for the rest of time… Speaking of which: Do you really believe that condemning all of humanity, for the rest of time, to suffering, as punishment for eating an apple, is an act of a righteous God? (rhetorical question)
I’m not saying we should relax all laws to allow people to commit whatever evil they want, but in this case, abortion, there is no clear line as to when it is, or isn’t an evil act. That line depends on each individual’s personal beliefs, and it’s each individual’s human right to decide for themselves.
Trump has said he would repeal healthcare, how does that support the sick, the dying, the poor? How can a leader support the people if they defund social programs, and implement a system where only the rich are rewarded? Trump’s appeal was in his buzzwords, he’s frank brashness to “say it like it is”, even he did lie 80% of the time… Why would he support small business, when he himself runs a large corporation? His stance on trade agreements is laughable when he himself has shipped jobs overseas, to make an extra buck. The treatment of workers building his new tower in Abu Dabi is akin to slavery, and so on. But this moot, the people that wanted to speak (those that actually voted), have spoken, and now we will all “suffer” whatever is to come… will he act on all of his promises, or will he turn out to be the hidden moderate that some claim he is truly is… only time will tell.
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As for health care. I believe he just said that health care should take the form of health spending accounts and private benefit plans. Currently I have the opposite in Canada which is a pretty great hospital health care and then everything else is private benefit plans (ie. health spending accounts). The drugs and private health services a person needs are expensive and much more discretionary than hospital expenses and should be at least somewhat closely associated to the persons choices of taking care of themselves and earning income. It is simply undue hardship on the population to have to provide non-hospital related health products and services to everyone for free regardless of their ability and willingness to contribute to the economy.
The key is that it doesn’t matter what you call your health care system as long as it is implemented wisely and is reasonable. How much of the hospital fees will his health spending account cover? How much drugs or specialist fees will it cover? Until we know that then we can’t judge it. Also, anything is better than Obamacare 🙂
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Now to address all of Trump’s many public flaws that you are referring to. Yes I think Trump has made terrible choices, has demonstrated extremely questionable character, has undoubtedly compromised on good values at times and many other things. I also think he still has a long way to go. However, what I see from him during the election is at the minimum outlining a basic plan to lead based on Biblical values on key issues and demonstrating a patriotic value for the good of his country. He seems to be maturing in whatever faith he has as well as morally. He seems to enjoy being politically incorrect which is refreshing and more similar to how Jesus spoke then most Christians today. Love doesn’t offend people just for the sake of offending but it doesn’t ever compromise on the truth in fear of offending either. The pressure these days to be politically correct demands a man that can take shit in the face and keep walking straight. Trump hasn’t been perfect in that but seems to be doing fine. Also, God loves to use the foolish people of this world to shame the wise. It is his style. Trump is undeniably viewed as a fool in the world’s wisdom which is one of the biggest qualities that God looks for in revealing his power in the earth. Moral failures also characterize maybe most of Christianity’s greatest heroes. It isn’t our successes that define us as much as how we respond to our failures.
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I still don’t see any concrete definition you have given for what a human is. You mentioned it may include a heart beat or fully functioning brain. Your web link although it did contain many opinions to different questions also didn’t attempt to answer the question of what the definition of a human actually is. I believe this reinforces my point about how important that question is to actually answer. How dare anyone say that abortion is OK without defining what murder is or what a human is!? That is like saying I am not sure if I think you are a human so I am just going to kill you without really answering the hard question of whether it is morally OK or not.
While a beating heart would rule out many abortions (18 days after conception) I don’t see how any single functioning body part defines us as human. What about someone with heart surgery? If there heart fails and gets replaced with a mechanical heart are they not human? If someones brain can’t feel pain does that mean they aren’t human? There is a HUMAN condition for not being able to feel pain and it is a disease. Are they not human? If I give you a pain killer so you can’t feel any pain then can I kill you morally?
As per your free will question that is easy to answer and I have already. Free will is valuable because that is part of God’s creative nature. Forced sacrifice is wasted but what greater love is there than that a man lays down his life for his friend (or child) (willingly). God obviously gave us free will not to choose evil but to enjoy us when we choose Him! I don’t let my children make their own decisions so that they will learn to hurt others and destroy their lives! I give them increasing freedom so that they can mature and learn to love. Also, while God does condemn us to hell for sin, his grace invites us to choose again a future with hope forever. Also, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil wasn’t just a red apple as opposed to only the green apples lol. You get to choose but kindness and grace leads us to choose love not self-serving desires. That is always how free will works. It says in the Bible who is the pot to say to the potter why did you create me to be like this? Once you create a God that can create the universe and other humans then you can judge how he is doing. If you are the created then you have no place to judge the creator.
Something else important to understand about Biblical judgment is that there are several different words for judgment in the Bible. We are responsible to put authority into place that judges everyone based on laws to protect us from others free will. An example would be how when a pregnant woman is murdered the murderer gets charged with two counts of murder. That law protects babies as well as mothers. We are never supposed to judge others if they are saved or not. That is no human’s place but God’s alone. We are supposed to judge amongst fellow self proclaimed believers as to whether they are sincere or are choosing to live in sin. We are not supposed to judge non-believers (aside from the legal human authority sense).
Along with the above the separation of church and state (which I do believe in) only means that the state shouldn’t enforce any one religion. That is totally different from the state not being allowed to have any similarity to Christianity like how things have been heading. Paul clearly draws a line as to what kinds of rules should be enforced and what should be self-guided. There is a base level and then there is a higher standard that individuals may hold themselves too. Righteousness is not the standard for human law. Human law is just for taking care of the basics, free will, any other things we have agreed to as a group of people (like taxes for roads) and for protecting our society as a whole (no homosexuality, no organizations promoting hate, standards for ethics for professionals etc). All that to say, if unborn babies are human, they need to be protected. If not, then it is the woman’s body only and her choice only (no husband approval legally required).
The danger in this discussion is that either side make generalizations about the mother. No generalizations will prove accurate all the time. The debate really isn’t about the mother at all. It is just about the baby. Are they alive? Do they have rights? If not then the mother is all that matters. Now the one exception is if the birth of the baby is guaranteed to kill the mother. (not that anyone ever knows that for sure) But in that case I would say only the mother could ever make such a choice since she likely loves the baby more than anyone else and it is her life as well.
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Healthcare: “On day one of the Trump Administration, we will ask Congress to immediately deliver a full repeal of Obamacare.” – Trump’s own website
His HSA plan is essentially a savings account, so nothing about it is “affordable” to those without means to save (and save large, as private healthcare costs in the USA are extremely expensive). As you yourself mention, in Canada we have public healthcare, this is similar to Obamacare, except that it was created allowing for multiple payors, which in partly why it’s costs are so high, vs Canada’s which is single payor. There are states (such as what Mitt Romney implemented) that used single payor and are more efficient… Basic healthcare is a human right, and should not leave people buried in lifelong debt simply because they were poor when they got sick.
You want a leader to lead using “biblical values”, but then say “the separation of church and state (which I do believe in) only means that the state shouldn’t enforce any one religion”… what about all those non-believers? By your own account you wish them to be suppressed by biblical values (making abortion illegal, making gay marriage illegal, etc), while saying that you respect other’s people’s views/beliefs. If you can accept that other peoples’ views differ from your own, then you must accept that not everyone’s definition of when a fetus = “human” is the same, and thus, abortion is a personal choice. There is no hard and fast definition that fits all people, cultures, and beliefs, so your argument is flawed in it’s necessity for a concrete answer.
Clearly you’re motive is to have fundamentalist Christian laws… Don’t forget, that within Christianity there are many different views on how and why people express their faith. For some sects, that means women must dress a specific way, social interactions need to be limited, etc… Love is important, but establishing strict rules around it is not love, it’s servitude.
As you said: “please respect everybody”, that should include gay people, people that may seek an abortion, people of different religions and cultures, etc… something that Christianity hasn’t always done well, which is why it has branched into so many sects… Catholics, Mormons, Amish, Baptists, Salvation Army, United, etc… All groups of people that read the same teachings (the bible), but with slightly different interpretations.
Who are we to question God? Who are we not to? God made all of the animals on this planet, but only we, humans, possess free will to the point of being able to contemplate these things… perhaps he wanted us to question, to challenge, to rise up and come together despite our individual differences. The idea of limiting freedoms based on belief, any belief, is segregationist, and not, in my opinion, a genuinely Christian value. It is prideful to say that others are wrong because of your beliefs, a sin in the eyes of the Lord…
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I will try to keep this one short (lol I failed). I really have no idea how his health care plans will turn out so I guess we will just have to see how that goes. He will likely change his mind if he doesn’t think it will work after he looks at it in more detail. I did misread HSA as health spending account as that is what my HSA means. A health savings account doesn’t seem like a very good idea at all. I do agree with you on that. Opening up the private coverage to the whole nation though will increase competition significantly and create better benefit plan options for sure though.
I very much think that Christian leaders should lead based on their Christian convictions. One thing that we haven’t discussed directly is truth. Truth is self evident in that if you disagree with it you still get results based on the truth. Truth is just how things work. It is the same across the whole world regardless of geography, race, gender or culture. Jesus is the truth the way and the light. How he created nature is unchanging. Regardless of whether you believe God has a son named Jesus, it is self evident that there can only be one truth about any given matter. Any single group of people are responsible to come up with laws that govern the entire group of people. One person can’t go around saying I am skilled so I get to speed 50km/h over the speed limit. I can’t go murder you because I don’t define you as a human. Just because someone disagrees with something doesn’t give them the right to do what they want. Pro-abortionists refusal to define human life is cowardice not acceptance of others. There are subjective things like art, fashion, beauty etc. There are also things like human life that have a concrete definition out of necessity (simply unethical to be left up to interpretation). Even if the definition is not immediately obvious…
Respecting someone can be mutually exclusive of agreeing with them or giving them the legal right to do evil things. I can still have respect for a man that has committed terrible crimes but is repentant or has also demonstrated character in other ways. Respect is not an all or nothing concept. I respect you for not getting frustrated with me and for trying to discuss this sensitive topic. I still would respectfully pass a law saying you can’t go 300 km/hr through the city. Christian values are hard for many to understand because Jesus’ ways are above our ways. He gave us free will knowing we would suffer for it. He created everyone and seems to have only chosen some. He is gracious and wrathful. He is kind and severe. He is just and yet slow to anger. Without knowing Him personally these aspects of Christianity are too much for anyone to understand. Even then we marvel at how he teaches us to live as it is so contrary to everything we are. I question God every day. Why do I have to wait so long for Him to provide for me? Why does He allow people to trash His name without revealing Himself more often. But I am in no place to say that I know better than God (I tried that and was wrong). It isn’t prideful to say that others are wrong in of itself. It is simply disrespectful to say that others are wrong without listening to their side of the story. That is partly why I wrote this blog. I am interested in a discussion about abortion. Maybe if a pro-abortion person feels truly heard and understood by a pro-life person then they will feel less hated and more open to considering what we have to say. Maybe 🙂 It is prideful however to say that no one can be right because that means that you know better than everyone who has an opinion.
Your last statement about freedom seems odd to me. If limiting freedom based on ANY belief is wrong then nobodies freedom could ever be limited lol. We should go fire all our police, never enforce any government rules and everyone move to Somalia. Then you will see what unlimited freedom looks like. You sound pretty offended at Christian values yet you selectively choose to adhere to them in some areas but not others. Integrity is when you apply the same standard to every situation. Also, if you are willing to stand behind what you say then why not put your name to it? I always think names make the internet a safer place (unless you are a minor).
Steve
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Steve,
As you’ve said, people make decisions based on the information they have. I was raised as Christian. I’ve sung the songs, I’ve read the stories, and I’ve heard the teachings of God. As a child, I once decided to read the entire bible. I wanted to know to the truth for myself… I did that, I read it all, and although I may not remember it word for word, I do remember the glaring contradictions within it’s own pages.
For example, verses that call for “an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth…” vs ones that say “turn the cheek”. Some Christians have chose to adhere to the first passage, take for instance the death penalty. Often still performed in the most Christian states. Carried out in the presence of a priest, an “evil” person is murdered… or does a person stop being a human simply because they committed a sin?
It’s like trying to use a radio dial, like it’s an on/off switch. The world is in fact shades of grey, as it was created so by God. We have the power to choose, and through that power God’s will is enacted. Every day people make choices, not based on laws, but on what they feel is right. Take your family, your wife didn’t choose an abortion because it’s illegal, she choose not to because of her beliefs, her own personal choice… It didn’t take the law to control her and make her pick life, she decided freely.
If, as you say, God constructed this world so that we may be tested through suffering, to prove that we are worthy of his grace in Heaven, then in essence you’re saying God is a sadist, i.e. taking pleasure in seeing us endure the hardships, overcome the suffering through strife, so that we may be rewarded in the afterlife. I’m suggesting that God is much simpler. He is love, and love means acceptance, understanding, etc… these things are often gained by questioning the world around us. The bible is not word for word facts, it is a general lesson to treat others, as you would like to be treated. Common sense and decency are common themes to Humanity, and not simply Christian views. Hinduism, for example, places a value on life that transcends human or not, but as per your faith it is wrong because it’s not “the one true God”…
I believe facts, take for instance the bible itself. It’s inherent contradictions are the result of it’s writing. The bible was written, not by the hand of God, but by the hands of men. A collection of writings, with the earliest ones dating back 3500 years… Thirty-Five Hundred Years… You say people make decisions on the information they have available, so surely you can agree that in the last 3500 years human knowledge has increased? And so a book that old may be a touch out of date… It was written by different men, with different points of view, and different motives. Religions have been used to enslave to people, as much as to free them. Take for instance Sharia Law. The Muslim faith has a range of followers that go from progressive views, to extreme fundamentalists. Sharia Law is deeply fundamentalist, and through it controls are exercised to limit human rights, especially those of women. Gays are oppressed, women are subservient to men (i.e. men are meant to carry out the significant work), abortion is illegal, etc… is any of this sounding familiar (if not, go read Trump’s campaign…)? Much like Christianity, when you go to extremes, the motives of those leaders should be questioned.
The best advice I could offer you is probably to look at sources outside of your church to see what those other groups are actually saying, instead of repeating what those inside your circles say they say… As an engineer you look at problems to find a solution, you consider and weigh various options, from different perspectives, in order to reach the best outcome.
You ask why I didn’t publish my name? Well, for 1. I find it easier to speak completely openly/honestly this way. Perhaps it’s partially a self-confidence issue, but I would also self-censor my comments to not offend you (so much), and also I don’t feel this is really a discussion for the workplace. Also, if I published my name at the start, you would do what you always do, and probably just label me “wrong” and walk away. By posting anonymously you seem to have actually listened more, despite your repeated rhetoric and bullying. I say bullying because you keep trying to label me “pro-abortion” when I’ve clearly (tried to be clear anyways) conveyed that I am pro-choice, which is NOT the same thing. By being anonymous, this post is the ideas it’s stating, and not the person you can easily dismiss.
Please don’t be confused, I’m not telling you to change your faith/beliefs, I am simply challenging you to live up to your own words. To gain more knowledge, and consider your sources. You’ve said that you respect other’s opinions, but have you ever truly tried to understand why other’s opinions are what they are? I have, and through my life experiences my views and beliefs have evolved. I can respect your view, as your view. I can agree to disagree because I know that I don’t have all of the answers. Anyone claiming they do, is full of shit. I can act and teach children the value the love, acceptance, and understanding, without constraining them by fear of going to Hell if they don’t follow my specifically laid out plan…
Is there a God? I think so, but does He/She give a shit what I do from day to day? I think not so much… As you said God forgives those transgressors who repent, why would He/She do that if there is only 1 true path? Because, simply, there isn’t. He/She created us, gave is free will, and set us lose. Through us, his actions are carried out, by the decisions we make…
Laws aren’t needed for that, laws are meant to protect society. It’s government’s role to support it’s citizens, not control them. With Trump’s victory weapons’ manufacturer’s stocks rose. Why? Because he’s rash, because protectionism leads to conflict. Bolstering weapons is a means of stimulating the economy, but weapons are made to be used… by your logic, if killing (for any reason) is murder, than to support those notions is to be pro-war/pro-killing… Even if you don’t believe in the overwhelming facts of climate change, what is the harm in developing renewable energies (whose stocks fell with his victory)? Well, let me put it this way: would you go camping and leave a pile garbage laying around the forest? Or would you clean up after yourself for the good the planet? I’d prefer to clean up, because personally my beliefs lead me to be responsible, not because there’s a law saying you can’t leave a candy bar wrapper in the forest…
“I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men (and women) are created equal.”” That is truth…
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